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  • »KanoFu« ist männlich
  • »KanoFu« ist der Autor dieses Themas

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1

Saturday, 29. May 2010, 11:25

Nochn netter guide von den Goons

Zitat


Choosing What Ships/Weapons to Train

Eve has a very wide variety of ships and equipment that are actually viable. In addition, there are a lot of skills that contribute to the effectiveness/power of a particular ship's setup, and having focused long-term goals is a huge help in the mid-term (0.5 - 2 years played).[1]

Quick and Dirty Summary

Goonfleet public wiki has a short summary about races: LINK BROKEN

Weapons systems

When choosing a race to train, the first thing to consider is the type of weapons they use. Eve ships are geared toward using one or more types of weapons, so with very few exceptions, you will be using certain weapons for certain ships.

There are two "grand"[2] skill paths for weapons: Turrets and Missiles, and several other systems of note: Jamming (aka ECM; can stop a ship from affecting others), Logistics(healing), and Drones (little "fighters" that shoot, jam, or heal).

(Drones are special in that almost all ships have some drones, so training time here is rarely a waste. There are even a few ships that rely on drones for the majority of their damage, so they're almost a "grand" system, in a way.)

The crux of the issue is that training in one of these gives you no benefit in another. So if you start with turrets, then switch to missiles, you'll be starting from scratch.

On top of this, turret weapons are subdivided into 3 more categories, where the larger portion of training is not shared. So it's quite easy to "waste" time training up one system if later you prefer a ship that uses different systems.

The Different Systems

Turrets: (Short Range / Long Range)

Each category of turreted weapon has a short range and long range version.
  • Energy Weapons: (Pulse Lasers / Beam Lasers)
    Lasers are found only on Amarr ships and provide the 2nd best DPS at short range, and the best at long range. They require the most energy (capacitor) to fire, but this usually isn't a problem as their ships have larger capacitors to compensate.
    Players complain about Pulse Lasers especially being overpowered, because even though they are the "short" variant, they easily hit "medium" range at full damage, AND have the 2nd best DPS of short-range weapons, AND have little problems hitting ships at close ranges anyway. They're currently the flavor of the month, with no signs of changing soon.
  • Hybrid Weapons: (Blasters / Railguns)
    Some Caldari and all Gallente ships use hybrid weapons. They don't require as much energy to fire as lasers, but they don't fire for free, either. Blasters do the highest damage of any short-range weapon, but can only deal that damage point-blank, where their battleships have problems hitting enemies that closely. Railguns are very long range, but deal mediocre DPS that far out.
  • Projectile Weapons: (Autocannons / Artillery)
    Minmatar ships use projectiles exclusively, and (when good) are good in spite of them. Projectile weapons need no energy to fire, and can shoot even when a ship is completely out of capacitor. Autocannons deal the worst DPS of the short-ranged variants (though still good damage), but have little problems hitting targets that close. ACs can actually hit out to almost medium range, but get extra DPS penalties for doing so. The long-ranged Artillery weapon is currently in a woeful state. It has the hardest time hitting out to extreme ranges, and deals the worst DPS of the three. However, Projectiles are slated for some major tweaks this next patch (Dec 2009).


Missiles: (Short Range / Long Range)

Missile weapons are found mainly on Caldari ships, though several other ships here and there make use of them. Minmatar have multiple ships with a couple missile slots you should use to maximize DPS, and one or two Amarr ships are missile boats. Like projectile weapons, they require no energy to fire, and can continue to shoot even when the ship's capacitor is empty.

Missiles have fairly low DPS, but have the advantage of being able to select the damage type they do LINK BROKEN, making them very useful for ratting and mission-running (PvE).

Unlike turrets, which hit targets instantly, missiles actually fly through space before hitting their target. In large-scale fights, this makes them rather useless as targets die before most (if any) of the missiles reach their targets.[3]

Another problem is short-ranged missiles are actually designed to hit larger, slow-moving targets. This means even in a short-ranged fight, missile-users with such weapons can only make use of their increased damage by going for Battlecruiser/Battleship targets. So even for small-gang engagements, their DPS is often only modest.

Others:
  • Drones
    Drones are extremely versatile: different drones can deal damage, jam, and heal to some degree. Virtually all ships have at least some drones, so time spent on drones (lights and mediums especially) is almost never a waste.
    Their downside is, they have to get right on top of their target before they can shoot/jam/heal, so their travel time is sort of worse than missiles (though once they get to their target they can stay on it).[4] Their range is also limited by skill, and is troublesome to increase beyond medium range. In large-scale fights, drones are virtually useless, and even actively discouraged as they add lag. In small-scale (and especially solo) fights, however, drones can be extremely powerful.
    Like missiles, different drones can deal each of the damage types in Eve, making drone boats (ships whose damage comes from drones) fairly competent in ratting/missioning (PvE).
    Gallente ships are known for having large amounts of drones, and they have a ship in each size category whose main DPS comes from drones. The Amarr also have a line of ships that rely on drone DPS, but once again, virtually all ships have at least some drones.
  • Jamming (Electronic Counter Measures, aka ECM)
    Each race has its own type of electronic warfare, but only the Caldari version is worth its own mention, or specializing in: ECM. Only certain Caldari ships can (effectively) make use of ECM, as well.
    ECM jammers have a chance to make a ship lose all its targets, and be unable to retarget for 20 seconds. This effectively stops a ship from dealing missile/turret damage, logistics healing, or giving drones new targets.
    Effectively, an ECM ship can lock down 2-3 other ships in any given fight. On the small-scale, this is pretty much the most powerful thing you can do in any fight. However, once there are more ships in the enemy fleet than can be locked down with ECM, the rest can simply target the fragile ECM ship and take it out of the fight early. So in any large fight, you will be shot at (and likely die) first.
  • Logistics
    Any ship can mount a (very) short-range module to heal another ship, and the skills required to do so are very low. Generally this is only effective on battleships because of the short range and higher speeds of other ship classes. But there are 4 ships in the game (one for each race) that get huge, huge bonuses to logistics, both in how many they can fit and run simultaneously, and in the amount of range they can heal from.
    These ships are extremely powerful and able to counter the DPS of 3 or more enemy battleships. Used in groups of 3-5 or more, they're able to repair each other and keep an entire fleet together under withering fire. Even in smaller groups, they can be very powerful when properly protected, though their fragility can become an issue. Lastly, the ship itself is kind of expensive.


Recap:
  • Training in one system will not get you any benefit in another, so specializing will save you training time.
  • Major avenues are turrets, missiles, drones, ECM, and logistics.
  • Turret Weapons are further subdivided into lasers, hybrids, and projectiles.
  • Virtually all ships have drones, so time spent here is usually not wasted.



The Races

Most races specialize in a limited number of the above systems, so choosing what weapons system or race to train will heavily influence (or dictate) the other.

Another variety to consider is the method each race uses to increase their maximum HP and self-heal. There are two tanking types: armor and shield, and both are generally effective when used properly on a ship (most are suited for one or the other), so all you need to know is training each type takes about 15 days for a Tech 2 tank.

Races:
  • Amarr: Sole user of Energy weapons (lasers). Armor tanks. One line of ships that rely on drone DPS. A ship here and there that uses missiles.

    Most Amarr ships focus on damage dealing with lasers and large armor tanks. In a game focused on dealing damage and surviving, they're currently the flavor-of-the-month. Many of their ships are the highest-DPS variants in their class (or close to it: Zealot, Harbinger, Armageddon, Abaddon), and generally very sturdy (virtually every single ship).

    Arguably, their ships lack versatility (not many mid slots), but that doesn't keep them from having some good solo ships (their drone-based line: Pilgrim/Curse).

    They have arguably the best fleet-sniper in the game (Apocalypse), and the damage type on lasers make them excellent for ratting in Delve (elsewhere, they're lackluster for PvE).

  • Caldari: Mostly Missiles, with some specialized ships having Railguns for long range. Only race with ECM Jamming ships. Shield tanks.

    Caldari ships all shield tank, and, with few exceptions, deal damage with missiles. This makes them the best race for mission-running (Drake, Raven), and fairly good for ratting (though less so in Delve, where the rats unfortunately deal bonus damage to shields).

    They are unfortunately almost completely deficient in solo-viable ships (though many argue soloing in Eve is not viable to begin with), but can be amazing in small gang PvP with their ECM line (Blackbird, Rook, Falcon, Scorpion), and competitive with their hardy ships and reasonable, long-range DPS (Cerberus, Drake), or astounding with short-range missiles against battleships (Raven).

    Unfortunately for fleet fights, missiles are almost completely worthless, but Caldari pilots willing to train up Railguns as well will find an amazing fleet sniper eventually (Rokh).

  • Gallente: Heavy emphasis on drones; all ships use Hybrid weapons (blasters and railguns). All ships use armor tanks, but some ships have interesting shield tank options.

    Gallente ships are known for having lots of drones, usually many more than other ships in their category. They also have a ship in every size category that gets most of its damage from drones (Vexor, Myrmidon, Dominix, Ishtar). Their ships are also very versatile (lots of mid slots), but are only really allowed to shine in small groups.

    Because blasters are so very short range (and drones have large travel times), to maximize DPS, Gallente ships need to be right on top of their targets. In anything larger than a small fight (5-7+ players per side), this is severely handicapping as targets die before ships can get there. However, the Dominix is an incredible and versatile small-gang battleship (especially for remote reps).

    On paper, a Gallente ship will generally outclass any other ship in its category in a 1v1 with its drones, tank, and extra mids, but most Gallente ships are too slow to solo-roam effectively in 0.0 (the Taranis being a notable exception).

    Lastly, the Dominix is second only to the Raven for PvE mission-running, but the Megathron is a sub-par (though perfectly passable) fleet-sniper.

  • Minmatar: Sole users of projectiles. Lots of ships with random missile slots. Lots of ships aided by drones. About half-and-half armor/shield tanking ships.

    To make the most out of Minmatar ships requires a lot of cross-training. As you progress through the ships, you'll need both armor and shield skills to use them all effectively. Their stand-out baseline ships (Hurricane, Typhoon) require solid projectile, missile, AND drone skills to get the edge on their competitors.

    They have an absolutely astounding solo-ship, the Vagabond, for those so inclined, but their fleet-sniping options are very poor. PvE, they are also lack-luster, having no way to switch their main damage type which Delve rats are resistant to.

    In small gangs, the Typhoon is an excellent close-range battleship once you've trained projectile AND missile AND drone skills, but otherwise their battleship selection is loathed and lamented by virtually everyone (especially Minmatar pilots). Long-range projectile (artillery) weapons deal the least damage and have the hardest time getting to long range, but the changes to Doomsday mechanics and projectile weapon tweaks may change all this come Dominion (Dec 2009), letting their fleet-sniper be competitive again (Tempest).


Recap:
  • Amarr: Lasers, drones, armor. Some missiles.
    - Solo: Good
    - Small gang: Excellent
    - Fleet fight: Excellent
    - PvE: Poor (everywhere), Excellent (Delve)
  • Caldari: Missiles, ECM, shields. Rails for long range.
    - Solo: Terrible
    - Small gang: Excellent (ECM), Good (missiles)
    - Fleet fight: Terrible (missiles), Excellent (railguns)
    - PvE: Excellent (everywhere), Good (Delve)
  • Gallente: Drones, hybrids, armor. Shields sometimes an option.
    - Solo: Poor
    - Small gang: Excellent
    - Fleet fight: Poor
    - PvE: Good (everywhere), Good (Delve)
  • Minmatar: Projectiles, missiles, drones, armor, and shields. Bad Battleships.
    - Solo: Excellent
    - Small gang: Excellent
    - Fleet fight: Poor
    - PvE: Poor (everywhere), Poor (Delve)



Training Times:

Last to consider is training for systems is not all equal. For example, it's quite easy to get ECM skills early on, and not so painful to switch to another system from them, but much harder to switch between say, Logistics and a new turret type.

All training times are (very rough) for a brand-new character with learning skills and no implants (so they're basically worst-case).

T2 Armor tanking: 12d
T2 Shield tanking: 20d
T2 Battleship Turret Weapons + Support Skills: 123d (96d to train a second set of BS turret weapons)
T2 Battleship Missiles + Support Skills: 47d
T2 Combat drones: 66d (43d extra to train heavy drones)
ECM: 30d (128d total absolutely maxed)
Logistics: 91d (33d more for Logistics V)
One race's Battleships (hull): 6d
Racial Frigate V: 12d
Racial Cruiser V: 30d
Battlecruisers V: 35d
Racial Battleship V: 46d


Closing:

It's very easy to get distracted in Eve and start training all sorts of things all over the place. Aside from everything mentioned here there is industry, research, trade, leadership, exploration, and on and on and on.

However in a fight there are only a limited set of skills that determine how much damage you can deal, and how much you can take. At that moment, everything else you may have trained goes right out the window. Specializing (training Tech 2 mods and then level V skills) will make all the difference in an otherwise even fight.

Conversely, it's quite easy to train frigate-sized ships and guns (and pretty easy for cruisers), and a sure-fire way to start to hate Eve is getting into an activity you feel you have to do (as opposed to just doing whatever you feel like), so ultimately... play Eve the way you see fit.

The best way to choose a race is to simply get in the game and see what the ships can do. Talk to people and see what their experiences are, what they like doing, and if their chosen skill path has allowed them to do it or not. Go on ops/fleets, and see which ships shine and see what you wish you could do.


Current as of Oct. 24, 2009.


Footnotes:

1: Once a character is older than (very roughly) 2 years, you can start running out of skills to maximize on a single ship setup, so you might as well cross-train at this point.

2: A "grand" skill path is not a real term used in game.

3: Missile flight times at sniping ranges can be 40 seconds or more.

4: Yes, sentry drones can shoot targets from further away, but since they can't move they require you to not be aligned while sniping, you lose them if you have to run suddenly, and to get better DPS than heavy drones requires rigging a ship specifically for them. They've really fallen out of use.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »KanoFu« (29. May 2010, 13:10)


Lorm

Schindluder

  • »Lorm« ist männlich

Registrierungsdatum: 30. March 2006

Spiel: iRacing, Shogun 2

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2

Saturday, 29. May 2010, 11:48

ich find weissen text auf weissen hintergrund voll geil :thumbsup:


markiert den text, dann gehts
Jeden Montag ab 8:00 Uhr! Sprechstunde
Brustvergrösserung durch Handauflegen. Bei nicht Gelingen zahle ich 5€

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Lorm« (29. May 2010, 12:25)


Cabora

Unschuld vom Land

Registrierungsdatum: 16. May 2010

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3

Saturday, 29. May 2010, 11:53

Ja, das hat was :D

  • »KanoFu« ist männlich
  • »KanoFu« ist der Autor dieses Themas

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4

Saturday, 29. May 2010, 13:09

Ach katze.... bei mir is der Hintergrund schwarz....
ich änder das mal. :love:

Kh'arta

Forenmaus

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5

Saturday, 29. May 2010, 15:17

Jetzt isses hellgrau statt weiß, lesen kann man's trotzdem nicht. :P

Mimei

survived everything

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6

Saturday, 29. May 2010, 15:51

Meine lieben Herrn... ich hab jetzt mehrmals versucht, den Quotebeitrag (im Standardstil) leserlicher zu gestalten;
leider war da wohl ein Farbverrückter am Werk, die ca. 1000 Farbcodes von Hand zu entfernen dauert ewig, teilweise ist jedes zweite Wort marktiert.
Einfach kopieren und editieren verfälscht die Aufzählungen, aber das versuch ich nun nochmals...

Jetzt besser?
Even if it's easy to be free
What's your definition of freedom?
And who the fuck are you, anyway?
Who the fuck are they?
Who the fuck am I to say?
What the fuck is really going on?

Kh'arta

Forenmaus

Registrierungsdatum: 30. March 2006

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7

Saturday, 29. May 2010, 16:05

Ja, super lesbar nun.

Eoin

Porno - Iraner

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8

Saturday, 29. May 2010, 18:00

Mimadmin gets 2700 points of Experience for solving the big board problem-Quest!

*duck und wegrenn*


>>Reicher Mann und armer Mann
>>standen da und sah'n sich an.
>>Und der Arme sagte bleich:
>>"Wär ich nicht arm,wärst du nicht reich."
>>(Bertolt Brecht)

Lorm

Schindluder

  • »Lorm« ist männlich

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9

Saturday, 29. May 2010, 18:28



Jetzt besser?
naaaaja



:D :D
Jeden Montag ab 8:00 Uhr! Sprechstunde
Brustvergrösserung durch Handauflegen. Bei nicht Gelingen zahle ich 5€


  • »KanoFu« ist männlich
  • »KanoFu« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Registrierungsdatum: 4. October 2009

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10

Sunday, 30. May 2010, 01:17

Ich gloob so gut ist der Kram nun doch nicht, dasser son Drama veranstaltet =)

Lorm

Schindluder

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11

Sunday, 30. May 2010, 11:04

wir mögen sowas!

gell mimei :D
Jeden Montag ab 8:00 Uhr! Sprechstunde
Brustvergrösserung durch Handauflegen. Bei nicht Gelingen zahle ich 5€


Mimei

survived everything

  • »Mimei« ist männlich

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12

Sunday, 30. May 2010, 11:59

Tsk, von mir stammt hier nur ein Beitrag, wo ich versucht habe, die Problematik darzustellen und zu klären.
Wer spämt denn hier rum?
Even if it's easy to be free
What's your definition of freedom?
And who the fuck are you, anyway?
Who the fuck are they?
Who the fuck am I to say?
What the fuck is really going on?

Cabora

Unschuld vom Land

Registrierungsdatum: 16. May 2010

Charakter: Eve: Mondul Amantes

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13

Sunday, 30. May 2010, 12:38

Wird schon seinen Grund haben warums hier keinen Beiträgezähler gibt :P

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